#070: Easy Strategies on Ergonomics by Brandon Olin
Brandon Olin is an ergonomics at Movility and he provides the desk jockey with great strategies to decrease the strain you place on your body when you sit at a desk for a living.
***This is a podcast transcript so please excuse any grammar and spellign errors***
Hey, Desk Jockeys welcome to another episode of the Modern Desk Jockey where we try to bring health and wellness to the desk worker. In today’s day and age, many of us are working sitting at a desk for prolonged periods of time, and this is your weekly podcast to try to improve those situations for you. Today we have Brandon Olin on the show he is an ergonomist, and he really brings a ton of value, he is with a company called mobility and he really brought a lot of good information to today’s episode. I asked him a lot of questions about specific set ups for the workstation and certain things you can do to really try to prevent the ill effects of sitting, and so I know you will enjoy this episode. I try to bring on guests every so often that can really give you advice that you can implement right away. Hopefully if you’re listening to this show as it releases on Monday morning on your way to work you can make it a weekly habit and then just really integrate a lot of these tips, tools, and tactics into your daily life really sometimes and obviously at your workstation and you’ll be amazed at what you can do to really decrease the chances of pain, overuse injury, stress all the different things that can happen from long hours sitting at the computer and at the desk.
So before we dive into that episode, I really want to encourage you to leave us a review. I really would appreciate it, if you’re enjoying this podcast, if it’s part of your commute to work or just part of your weekly podcast list see if you can just click right on there, it’s on the app now in iTunes I know where you can just leave a quick review and just give us some feedback. So I would truly appreciate that, we’re going to be soon heading into twenty eighteen. We have a lot of exciting things going on from a company standpoint, from a podcasting standpoint, from a practical clinical setting and so any feedback is very helpful as we try to plan out our twenty eighteen. So without further ado here is Brandon and I will see you next week.
Kevin Christie: Alright Brandon welcome to the show today, we really appreciate you have on. Tell our desk jockeys a little bit about yourself both personally and professionally.
Brandon Olin: Appreciate it Kevin thanks for having me on, well basically in a nutshell what I’d do is I work as a consultant for companies when it comes to ergonomics and really just sort of general employee health and it started as a bit of a passion project of mine because I was doing it kind of for the sake of solving my problems. What happened was I finished my final year of university which I did while I was working a full-time job and I was closing on a house all at the same time for that last year, and the combination of those three things meant that I was sitting for eighty hours a week on a good week. Probably a hundred plus on some of the real nasty ones between everything I had going on, by the end of that year when I finally graduated I was in worse shape than any twenty-three years old has any right to be ever, to be honest. So I started trying to turn back the clock as we all do when things get a little bit away from us. I started trying to eat healthily and going to the gym a lot and reclaim my health and youth and all that and while I got some results I never really got as far as I wanted to go or got back to where I’d been before and so I started looking at all this trying to figure out okay like what’s different between then and now and the main thing that I realized is that the biggest difference was that I wasn’t moving anywhere as near as much.
So I started looking into it, and I was like okay when I was in high school I would have a break of five to ten minutes in between every fifteen-minute class and I could walk between classes and get some movements. I’d be walking or biking to and from school every day or at least you know walking to the bus stop.
We’d have [inaudible 04:14] as part of the school, so you’d get some movements in, just naturally built in and when I compared that to my modern existence I would get up to spend a half hour on my butt driving to work. Sit for four hours at work, spend an hour sitting at lunch, sit for another four hours and then drive for another half hour on the way home and it’s like even if I worked out really intensely for an hour after work. I was still spending that first ten to twelve hours of the day on my butt, so it’s like one hour of intense activity might be great but twenty-three hours of complete lack of activity is just horrible. So that’s sort of what led me down this path.
Kevin Christie: You know I agree with you, we actually had an episode about… called ‘the healthy or the active desk jockey,’ and there’s this big misconception that just because you’re very active, I mean I even have Iron Man [inaudible 05:05] leads, and they’re super active but they sit for a living, and they don’t realize that you still have to make changes in your lifestyle at the desk also add in some crack of exercises otherwise you’re just going to bring that de condition syndrome from the desk to your bike or to your swim or run and so you hit it right on the head for sure about that aspect of it.
Brandon Olin: One of the ways that I describe this to a lot of people I work with is that you know people will be sitting still all the time and then they try to sort of dive in the deep end because they’re like “oh I’ve been spoiling myself for so long, now I have to be really strict to get things moving in the right direction.” So adopt like the most strict you know buzzword laid in diet that they can find and work out like a madman for an hour a day six days a week.
That’s essentially like trying to sprints before you learned how to walk like you’re… it’s almost like your body kind of forgets how to move, and you don’t… you build up these bad habits over time and if you start trying to do crazy heavy deadlifts when you’ve got all these back problems like you’re going to compound the problem and make it even worse.
Kevin Christie: I agrees definitely it’s a true thing, there’s obviously a wide ray of activity levels and things of that nature and so obviously we can get down to you know the essence of what health and wellness is of desk and there’s a lot of components of it and I know as an ergonomist you probably have one view of really a great starting point for these desk workers and so as an ergonomist and someone that essentially fits people to their work station, what has been really your biggest concern for the desk jockey as it pertains to their work station?
Brandon Olin: So we have varying levels of severity for a lot of these different issues. My biggest concern is definitely going to vary from person to person, but if I had to stick it to one. The one that probably applies to the greatest number of people is definitely going to be the lack of movement, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you need to go out and get a standing desk or a treadmill desk or you know to start doing like herpes or something crazy in between little work sessions at your desk. You really don’t need to go that crazy, there have been some studies that have come out over the past few years where they found that you can massively mitigate the negative health effects of a sedentary desk job just by taking a short break every twenty years or thirty minutes. Just get up and spend two to three minutes walking around and that alone can have a massive impact.
So if people take nothing else away from this interview, I would say at least do that, and you’re going to see a massive improvement in a lot of whatever issues you’re dealing with. What we’re talking about lower back pain is definitely one that is helped a great deal by walking around. I found that stress can actually have a significant positive effect on that as well if you take some time to sort of step back from your work and get a little bit of emotional distance from it. If you just had like really brutal sales call with somebody and you’re just, you know miserable and feeling awful. If you take like a five or ten-minute, walk away and just sort of let your mind unfocus or let your mind wander a bit it’s amazing how much better you’re going to feel. So if people can do one thing I would say that’s probably the best thing to do as often as you can.
Kevin Christie: Yeah I actually did a Facebook live interview with someone here locally down in South Florida about… she’s a fitness specialist, and we talked about walking meetings and not only do you get the benefit of movement as far as your body muscle skeletally, you definitely will actually think a little bit better. You get that blood flowing, energy going, you will be surprised at how your mind will be a little bit sharper when you get some of that moving going. So we really like some of these walking meetings.
Brandon Olin: Oh absolutely and you know they’re definitely not alone in the enjoyment of that. Some of the greatest minds throughout time have used walking as a better way to connect with people, I mean even right now I know Steve Jobs was a fan of walking meetings. If I remember right, I think they said Mark Zuckerberg also does it and we’re also talking about going back all the way to people like Thomas Edison. I believe Hippocrates who is considered as the father of modern medicine was known for taking his students out on walks as they discuss the topics that they were working on. So it’s a very, very beneficial thing and I think in todays like a fast-paced society where the one thing that everybody has in common is how freaking busy we all are. People you know they want to make the greatest use of their time and carving out a chunk of the precious little free time or work time that they have for something that you know something like walking that seems kind of mundane and pointless, people are very hesitant to do that.
Kevin Christie: I agree, and it’s funny because for me personally I have a Weimaraner which is a big hunting grey dog that likes to be active and they are just a very active dog, and I live in walking type of beachside community, and I can’t tell you how much thinking I get done on those walks. I got to the point where I’ve actually stopped bringing my phone a lot of times and definitely stop listening to podcast on the walk about half the time now to where I’ll just say I’m going to pick one struggle I’m having at work you know one thing, something I’ve got to think on really. I’m going to think on that for the twenty-five minute walk or whatever it is and it’s amazing the thinking that I get achieved and solutions I come up with, and so it’s been an active part of my life, and obviously I’m not saying everybody at work needs to have a dog or have brought a dog to work, but it just gives you a little bit of a real-world scenario. If you can find, you know some people have centers at their work, you get on the treadmill and think about that one problem that you’re stumped on at the day or going outside and getting a fresh air and getting the walking done, there’s just plenty of opportunities for it.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely yeah I think that’s something that’s starting to become more and more appreciated these days is the sort of the mind-body link. How your physiology, how you treat your body affects how you think and vice versa and that’s definitely some of the people are starting to notice more nowadays it’s interesting. So I told you that I ended up buying the house when I was finishing school. I actually just returned home about a month and a half ago after spending the past year essentially traveling around the world.
I was living in Colombia in South America, and then I was living in Hungary in Serbia in Europe and a couple of other places. It’s super interesting to me to see because I tend to adhere to a pretty strict slow carb Ketogenic style diet. I was seeing people in these places that were eating a ton of foods that would you know based on my knowledge would normally lead to waking. Like in Colombia it was a lot of you know rice potatoes, planting, sugary fruit juices all these things and despite that the people there were fairly fit and healthy and skinny and you know I noticed the same thing over in Europe and a couple of other places and it was very apparent, like even if they don’t eat that much the fact is these are cities that are connected very well with public transit. People are spending a lot of time walking or standing on public transit, biking around the place to place. They’re just getting a lot more low impact activity in throughout the day, and that alone is saving them from this you know the choice of what I might consider being a poor diet.
Kevin Christie: Yeah, no I agree I’ve traveled quite a bit I was actually just in Cambodia and Thailand this past year, and it was the same thing. It was like I can’t even recall seeing someone that was overweight other than the other American tourists. So I get it you know it’s one of those things where I think we’ve fallen into a bad habit you know even putting the nutrition aside but it’s just the lack of movement. I feel blessed as far as my job as a still a treating chiropractor I treat patients four-five days a week and so my job is you know predominantly moving around. Now I deal with like back and shoulder issues from the physical aspect of my job, but I don’t carry my cell phone on me when I’m with patients, but I wish I would. I should get one of the wrist ones where I can measure my steps because it’s got to be insane, the number of steps I take but what I like to talk about with people in regard to what you’re saying and I forget who mentioned it, I got to go through all my podcast again and figure out who said it first but I’m kind of call fitness snaking where you just kind of take these little snacks of fitness throughout the day and it’s not necessarily that ninety minutes work out straight through but not that that’s bad but if you can get the little things here and there throughout the day and you know to snack on some of those fitness movements, it will really go a long way.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely yeah, I think it was Katy Bowman are you familiar with her?
Kevin Christie: No I’m not.
Brandon Olin: She is pretty active in like the Paleo primal health community and all that, she’s written a few books. It’s all about basically you know barefoot, foot adaptation minimalist shoes and those sorts of things and she refers to what you’re just talking about now is nutritious movement, and I love that term. I think it’s a great way to describe it.
Kevin Christie: Yeah that’s a good one, I actually had, I interviewed Alex [inaudible 14:39] on this podcast, and he is into the barefoot, and he has like grass throughout the office I think he’s in Texas.
Brandon Olin: Like real grass throughout the office?
Kevin Christie: I want to say it’s artificial but he has it obviously on the outside too and encourages everybody to get out there and be barefoot and in nature so he kind of brings nature into the offices. It’s pretty cool, and he subscribes to that same type of thought process there, and it was pretty interesting what he had to say on the podcast about it. Some of his pillars of health and obviously of movement and some of the primal movement are keys to that for sure.
Brandon Olin: Grass in the office that’s dedication right there.
Kevin Christie: It is, it is so alright let’s move on a little bit I want to dive a little bit into the workstation at this point, and I have listened to one of your podcast that you were on before, and it was just extremely informative, and it was things that I know I could apply to my desk right away and so could you give our desk jockeys a few tips that they should really consider at their workstation to decrease the strain on the body because obviously, they’re going to have to sit and so when they are what can they do?
Brandon Olin: You’re definitely going to have solutions in different tiers and in… I guess you could say like different solution types. What I mean by that is the way that I prescribe a lot of the things that people should do, the types of solutions or treatments you have are preventative solutions, are mitigating solutions and then reversing solution. So a mitigating solution might be something like a, so you have to commute to work by car every single day that’s an unavoidable part of you know your current life situation. Sitting in that seat is not going to be good for your lower back no matter what way you cut it, you can mitigate the damage to your back by getting a say mesh lumbar support that will hold your back in the proper alignment. It’s not perfect because you’re not treating the root cause you’re just treating the symptom, but because of the nature of that activity you really can’t do anything else because I don’t think they are going to event like you know a standing desk or a yoga ball you can sit on for your car like that’s just completely not realistic.
Kevin Christie: Well will have driverless cars soon so then we can figure that out.
Brandon Olin: Well yeah, yeah then you can… I mean I will not maybe have like driverless yoga studio buses or something that would be a…
Kevin Christie: You can lay down and just sleep.
Brandon Olin: Yes so you’ve got mitigating solutions, you’ve got preventative solutions so that would be something that basically treats the root cause. The thing that’s causing your lower back pain or your eye strain or whatever it is and then you’ve got reversing solutions. So reversing solution might be you know a standing desk at work as both a reversing solution in terms of letting you be more active throughout the day and you know helping with the waking situation and all that and it can also be preventative solution because it basically prevents the situation that causes poor posture and lower back pain in the first place.
So now that those definitions are out there, the first thing that I would do anybody who’s listening to this and you too Kevin if you’re not already doing this, I hope you are because this one’s easy is to elevate your screen. So the human head is essentially designed to look directly ahead or about fifteen degrees down. So if you have your laptop on the table and even worse at if you’re typing on the laptop keyboard you’re craning your neck down to view it, you’ve got your shoulders slumped forward you’ve got your head tilted down, you’re causing all kinds of problems there.
So you want to raise the screen so that when you’re looking directly ahead, your eyes are focused on the top third of the screen. That way you’ll be looking straight ahead or looking about fifteen degrees down to look at the center of the screen, and that alone is going to work wonders for both your neck, upper back any sort of shoulder issues you have. You can buy monitor stands on Amazon or whatever but honestly like at my first job out of college I just stacked up reams of printer paper beneath it like who prints anything anymore anyway. So yeah if your listen to this go do that today right now, it costs nothing its super easy it’s going to work wonders for you and then on that same note a lot of people will deal with sort of these slumped forward shoulders. So one interesting thing I found about that which the solution won’t make a lot of sense right away, is to pull your keyboard, your mouse all of that as close to the edge of the desk as you can, and there’s a pretty interesting exercise you know whatever to test this out.
If you sit upright and try to get your posture as ideal as you can. So roll your shoulders up back and down so you’ve got your chest out, your arms back and everything’s lined up and feels good that you raise your arms your forearm so that they’re parallel with the ground which is considered the best position you can have them in and if you do that you’ll find that your hands are like just barely in front of your stomach. There’s not a lot of room there so if you have your keyboard and your mouse six inches away from the edge of the desk you have to reach your arms forward and your shoulders kind of naturally roll forward. So by pulling these to the edge of the desk that alone will help make it a lot easier to maintain that good shoulder position and all that. So those are two free things that can implement right away just go do it, it’s not going to cost you a thing.
Kevin Christie: Yeah those are instrumental for sure.
Brandon Olin: Yeah so then the next common one that people are going to deal with a lot is going to be lower back pain and what we found is that the problem with chairs, you know a lot of people say “oh if you want to deal with back pain you have to you know to maintain good posture,” but the problem is that the way the regular chairs are set up they actually encourage bad posture. So the way I look at it or the metaphor I like to use is ‘if you imagine your thighs like a wrench attached to the base of your spine, as you take your thighs from say pointing straight down towards the ground and move them up to parallel with the ground as they are in a regular seat and chair moving your thighs like that is like twisting the wrench, and it applies a ton of torque to the base of your spine which kind of pulls your spine down and out of alignment and so if you want a preventative solution something is going to treat that cause, you need your thighs to be pointed as close or closer to the grounds than they are in that situation you know aside from standing that’s what’s the pointed directly at the ground and super easy to maintain good posture.
The best-seated solutions for that are either to get a kneeling chair which kind of angles your thighs towards the ground or to get a yoga ball. So if I were going to say what’s the one thing that I can buy for like twenty bucks or less that’s going to help me in my office situation, I’d say buy a yoga ball and start sitting on it right now. You can angle your thighs towards the ground that alone is going to keep you more active throughout the day because you’re going to have to sort of balance yourself on it. A lot of your core muscles are going to have to fire just to sort of maintain that stability and that alone I mean I don’t know how much one costs probably like twenty bucks but that alone is going to work wonders for people.
Kevin Christie: Yeah it’s affordable, and if I’m not mistaken I know you can buy the different size of balls based on your size, like your height I should say. So like the balls will have a height scale on there correct?
Brandon Olin: I believe some of them do yes, you have to look for the right ones because a lot of them are just sort of like general application specifically for yoga but yeah they do you have different size one’s for you know people of different heights and sizes.
Kevin Christie: Yeah because I know like if you’re like six foot three and you give a forty-five centimeter gym ball that’s probably going to put you in that situation where your thighs are now wrong position. So definitely make sure when you are buying the gym balls you obviously check the size of it.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely yeah, so you can do that, you can do a kneeling chair which if you’re in a pretty a pretty tight laced office where things have to look nice and a yoga ball might stand out too much a kneeling chair is a good other option. It can look pretty sleek and professional, but they are going to be a good bit more expensive. I think the cheapest ones I saw were like sixty dollars, and they go all the way up to like a hundred and twenty, but those are a pretty good option as well. I’m actually currently sitting on a kneeling chair myself, but this was actually a hand me down from a family member so it just you know made sense to hold onto it.
So there are those options, so those are both going to be preventative options you know preventing the damage from occurring than as far as you know going beyond that, standing desks are definitely excellent tools to use. One problem though is that as I mentioned earlier with people trying to dive in the deep end and you go on the super strict diet and go to the gym at time, same thing with standing desk and people get a standard they say “okay I’ve been sitting on my butt all day for the past year forty hours a week, now I need to stand all day you know for the next year forty hours a week,” but that doesn’t work being completely sedentary in a standing position is arguably better than in a sitting position but it has a whole host of its own problems. So the best thing really is transitioning between different positions as much as possible, so for me, I might stand or work standing for like an hour, and I’ll try and shift up my foot positions throughout the day, and then I might sit for a half hour and go back to standing. Take a walking break every now and again and just getting that variety of movements in different positions in, it’s going to work for you a lot better than solely standing will.
Kevin Christie: I agree with that actually I just want to interject real quickly, I interviewed the CEO and founder of Varidesking I actually have a Varidesk. I like it and I think standing and the sit to stand option is very helpful again like you already mentioned it’s not a hundred percent needed but it makes it a little bit easier and he even said like if there is too much standing as well hey you don’t want to be standing too much that causes issues and he also mentioned things like your footwear and also anti-fatigue and certain things like that you want to take into consideration.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely yeah I definitely agree with him on that one. The anti-fatigue mats is an interesting one as well whether or not those are necessary I would say depends on your particular office environment. So if you’re in a really laid back office environment and you can wear a pair of say you know athletic running type shoes to work the anti-fatigue mat might be less necessary, but if you are in a business casual or higher type of office then an anti-fatigue mat would be very helpful. When I use that in the office what I did have, I had a pair of slip on dress shoes so when I was at my desk, I could just pop those off and basically stand in my socks on the anti-fatigue mat. So I got a little bit of a pseudo barefoot benefit out of it as well because standing all day in that type of shoe is not going to be too good for you either.
Kevin Christie: I can imagine for sure, that was great. That was definitely things that they can implement right away, and I actually appreciate that. It’s just how we say this but like fit in your desk to say my golf swing or I may have ten things wrong with it but if I can find a couple that might solve the majority of them I’m going to start there first, and that’s kind of what you just in for us is some big home runs there. Make those habits, and a lot of it will take care of themselves you know.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely yeah and it’s interesting that it’s something that people don’t spend that much time thinking about it because you know you spend from Monday through Friday timeframe you spend, if you have a normal office job a third of your time on this planet at that desk, and people will completely duck out their home theater set up with the nicest couches in the nicest T.V.’s and all that stuff but they don’t even think about doing the same thing to the office where they’re spending such a large amount of time. So there’s a weird bit of psychology going on there that’s kind of amusing
Kevin Christie: It really is, it really is, but I thank you for that information for sure, and this is a question that I ask a lot of folks, and you may have already answered it so if you did just kind of literate it but presently what is your massive transformative purpose in regards to health and wellness for the desk jockey?
Brandon Olin: I actually started this company up like I said fixing my own problems. I got in the standing desk, and that’s what we started up as an e-commerce company selling standing desks and our glasses that block UV light and things like that which we still offer. I found that those things have given great benefit to people, but the thing that I found is that having something like that is only as good as your ability to apply it and the knowledge is equally if not more so important. So that’s really what I’m doing now, I’m trying to help people learn just how this is negatively affecting them because honestly from what I’ve seen I consider probably one of, if not the biggest health crisis of the modern world is how much time are spending just completely not moving, and it’s only moving more in that direction it seems. I see companies putting out “ergonomic chairs” that will hold your entire body up right essentially like you’re laying down against this chair, and I’m like ‘no that’s moving in the wrong direction,’ we’ve got to… it’s not encouraging you to move so if you want to be healthy you need to sort of take it into your own hands. So that’s really my main goal here, it just gets people to move more.
Kevin Christie: Well you’ve achieved that as far as this episode, and I appreciate that, giving that education out there. I think that’s always the essence of making change is to get awareness going and appreciate your efforts in doing that,
Brandon Olin: Absolutely.
Kevin Christie: I’d like to give my desk jockeys a good resource each episode. What is one the book, blog or website you could recommend for the desk worker?
Brandon Olin: So it’s going to depend entirely on what problem that specific desk worker is suffering from but based on the latest numbers that I’ve seen one of the… probably the biggest issue that people are dealing with is being overweight, weight gain that sort of thing. The last I checked the numbers say that, I think it’s thirty-six and a half percent of the US adult population is obese which is just a staggering number, like you would think that with all the health and wellness info out there that people are getting healthier and healthier these days but from what I’ve seen the problem still getting worse.
So if people want to you know learn how to get healthy, lose weight all that sort of thing regardless of you know crazy intense workout routines and anything else I would recommend the book ‘Why we get fat’ by Gary Taubes. I think that’s how you pronounce his lessening tabs, tabs…
Kevin Christie: Yeah I’ll put it in the show notes as well.
Brandon Olin: Yeah it’s an excellent, excellent book actually one of the first books that I read on the subject that allowed me to finally take off the weight that I put on. The freshman fifteen that I’d added on throughout college, it’s great because… well I personally enjoy it because he really dives into the science and teaches you how the biological things work so that you can… he does recommend this specific type of diet but if you understand how the biology works then you can sort of stick with whichever diet you want as long as you adhere to these certain rules and you’ll still be healthy like you can do a vegetarian, low carb diet. It’s not the easiest thing in the world, but it is possible, you could also do you know a Paleo type one. So I really, really like that book and really, really recommend it it’s an excellent, excellent resource.
Kevin Christie: Perfect thank you, and how can our audience find you?
Brandon Olin: We have our Facebook and Twitter pages as both facebook.com/movilityco that’s essentially the word movility but with ‘v’ and M.O. V. I. L.I.T.Y.C.O, so facebook.com/movilitco twitter movility/movilityco and intagram.com/movility and our website is movility.co. We’re actually putting together a brief course, we’re planning on launching in the spring just free video series that will sort of walk people through a lot of these basics and a little bit more depth. So if people want they can go to our website movility.co/academy, and they can get updates on when that comes out and all of all that good stuff.
Kevin Christie: Perfect that’s great, great stuff. So thank you so much for your time today it was really just a lot of good value, and I know our desk workers will like that, reach out to you if they have any questions. Do you have any final last words for our desk jockey before we let you go?
Brandon Olin: A lot of people think it’s difficult to find time throughout their day to get more movement in. They’re like “oh I’ve got this meeting and that meeting and deadlines piling up,” and I would tell them to look into this thing called the Pomodoro Technique, have you heard of this Kevin?
Kevin Christie: Yes I have.
Brandon Olin: So for those unfamiliar basically you break your work up into twenty-five minute chunks with five-minute breaks in between. It was actually designed as a productivity technique because it allows you to focus on your work a little bit more and the break sort of give you that emotional distance to sort of step back from the issue and maybe see it with a little bit more objectivity. So the Pomodoro technique is the easiest way to keep getting the same amount or more work done but also get breaks for movement in throughout the day, even if you just you know get up go grab a cup of coffee. If you’re in a less judgmental office or care less about what your coworkers think you can do a set of push-ups right next to your desk. How you apply that is entirely up to you but just take those five-minute chunks, and you’ll be amazed how much better you feel.
Kevin Christie: That’s great, great advice and again I appreciate your time and everything that you brought our desk jockeys and so thank again and have a great week. I’m sure you and I will touch base again soon on this.
Brandon Olin: Absolutely Kevin thanks for having me.